Breadcrumbs plugin: does anyone have a workflow where they visualise chains of notes related by heirarchy in juggl graph

The following is my use case:
I use obsidian to compare and contrast and find the relations among various ideas i have about a topic.
I create atomic notes for each piece of idea.
Some ideas support other ideas, some ideas refute some other ideas; some ideas leads to other ideas, some ideas expresses other ideas etc. etc. Here “supports”, “refutes”, “leads to”, “expresses” are the relationships one idea note has with another idea note.
I use the breadcrumbs plugin to implement these link-types.
The following are some breadcrumb heirarchies I use to implement these link types among ideas:-

parent: supports
sibling:
child: supported_by
next: refutes
previous: refuted_by

parent: leads_to
sibling:
child: leads_from
next: does_not_lead_to
previous: is_not_lead_to_by

What I want is for the juggl graph to render these link types in the following manner:
Given the current note as the central note, i want all the notes that are supported by that note (parent notes), shown above this central note ; all notes that support this note (children notes) shown below this note, notes that refute this central note shown to the left of it (“prev” in the hierarchy) and notes that are refuted by it (“next” in the hierarchy) this shown to the right of the central note.

I think this would allow me to visualise the current note’s relationship with the rest of the notes in my vault very well. Currently the juggl plugin just shows all kinds of links all over the place.

This is what i think i want to achieve: How can i make the juggl graph render my notes in the above mentioned way - with the directionality that the breadcrumbs hierarchy gives made apparent in the graph?
If anyone has a similar or a better workflow, to achieve a similar goal please let me know.

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I’m looking for something similar. A visual representation of a hierarchy that’s not a graph view.

Argdown is close but requires putting everything in a code block which is very limiting.

See: Argdown Plugin is here!

This is also seems relevant since it’s specifically for Breadcrumbs - Graphviz and hierarchical graph layout: a review and plugin proposal but, it’s not with Juggl. I’m also unsure as to the future of its development so I’m hesitant to try it.

Personally, I’m not concerned about it working with Juggl but would love someway to visualize a hierarchy in a tree-like format (rather than a graph view).

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Thank you very much for replying. I hadn’t heard about Argdown before, I am glad to know to know that such a tool exists. But as you said, having to put everything into a code block manually does seem a little restrictive.

That’s quite complicated and I don’t think Juggl can handle that. Graphviz may do that, perhaps you want to check in Graphviz forum to know whether that’s possible or not.

Can I ask which part of the roadmap that you find unclear?

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Thank you very much for replying. Now I understand that what I am try to achieve might be too complicated to do, given my present skill level, using graphing software like juggl or graphviz. Just reading the instructions to using your plugin for just importing the obsidian notes to graphviz itself seems much too complicated to me, TBH😥. I am sure you would make it easier to do in the future but at present I think I would have to think in some other direction for achieving my purposes.
Anyhow, at present I don’t want to try to get my hands wet with this because I discovered yesterday that the breadcrumbs plugin itself has some bugs (I think) wherein not all links that I set get recognized (Bug: · Issue #353 · SkepticMystic/breadcrumbs · GitHub) in the first place.

If you just want to group the nodes of the same type into one place and not specifically placing the groups in your intended directions, then Juggl may do that but requires you to get your hands super wet, and Graphviz can do that easily. My plugin is specifically to address that. But if your vault is small I encourage you to do it with plain Graphviz first (so no need to worry about that bug). If you vision yourself to do the graph thing frequently in the future, then I encourage you to learn Graphviz.

I understand your intimidation. Everyone has it. But in the mean time, perhaps you want to check out other alternatives like Debategraph, or OVA?

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In your other forum post you said:

I must admit that after satisfying my needs, I will have less motivation for it until I meet another occurrence that I need to use the features I haven’t implemented

Just sounded like, since it already does what you need it to do, you are not particularly motivated to continue the development. I totally understand, of course, and I appreciate that you made it public for others to try.

ah yeah. But I guess I’m still active for discussions, and if you have better ideas just put them there and when I need to improve my code I’ll apply them as well.

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Thanks for the advice. I’ll maybe try to learn graphviz some time, though i cannot see that happening anytime in the near future. I checked out debategraph. I am glad to know that such a tool specifically for comparing, contrasting and relating ideas exists; however since it is an online tool, requiring registration and everything and my notes and all are all local files… i don’t want to export them all to an online service just for this functionality.
I didn’t understand which software you were referring by “OVA”…

Online Visualisation of Argument (OVA). But if you want an offline tool, I honestly don’t know any solution besides Graphviz

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Can OVA be made to work with Excalidraw? I think if Excalidraw can be made to work with Breadcrumb, it will solve this problem to some extent.

no I don’t think so

Have you looked into Excalibrain? I’m not positive, but it sounds similar to what you are looking for.

He has a bunch of intro videos too.

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WOW! Thank you so much for informing me about this @RyanQuey :smiling_face_with_three_hearts: :smile:!! I just saw the demo video of the plugin and it seems almost exactly like the tool i was searching for!