How do you manage News and History related topics?

Knowledge management
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A MOC is not intended for that. A MOC is a hub, a kind of Table of Contents that changes over time.

So, let’s say you are interested in Covid-19, and have a note about news article about the number of infections and deaths in countries, one about vaccine developments, one about the politics. So, you could have a MOC with 3 links, one to each note.

But a MOC is more than that. You can add to it some comments about each link, or give it some context, add an image, whatever.

Over time, the note about number of infections/deaths changes, so you amend the note, not the link to it. Later on, you may not be interested in that note anymore and delete it. The MOC needs to be amended.

Or you create a note about a different aspect of Covid-19, so you need to amend your MOC.

In other words, there is no reason why you could not use MOCs for News and History related topics.

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This is something I’m grappling with. My work entails writing analytical summaries of economic news and policy every week or so, which will be based on a variety of inputs: mostly policy announcements, business articles, data releases, etc.

Most of those sources are digital and online, and often brief (rather than long, academic articles, although those are useful background for most topics). I like to make a note for every source and write a few sentence summary, and maybe longer notes if particularly interesting. For years I’ve found this to be a useful way to absorb this information better, well before Obsidian. Every week or two I’ll ascertain the key themes and write a proper report on them.

What Obsidian offers is the chance of better way of connecting these trends, not just within a given week (which isn’t so hard, given proximity), but perhaps over time. The challenge is I’m collecting dozens of new articles (references/literature notes) per week, sometimes even a dozen a day. If I’m not judicious with linking and tags, they become so numerous as to be nearly meaningless. This is looking especially daunting if I make links to nouns, people, places, etc which overlap so often across the theme of references that I’m going over.

I’ve been mulling this over, so haven’t tried it fully yet, but I’m thinking my “reference” notes should only link to an idea or question note, not to each other and not to nouns/places/people. This helps cut down clutter in the note cloud/graph and focuses my attention on questions I want to answer, either in the next week or two, or perhaps that need more research long term. Perhaps another/additional point here would be to try to limit links from a reference note to only a few (e.g. 3), just to impose some discipline on linking only the most relevant points. The problem with this approach is that it starts out very hierarchical, but I hope eventually would start to be more organic as different questions link to each other and old references start to inspire new questions.

For nouns/people/places, perhaps tags are the best approach - something I was opposed to initially since tags don’t graph. But I’m finding the graph becomes very unmanageable quickly if one is tagging to liberally (i.e. if I have a reference note that is only 200 words, but has 10 tags in it to all the nouns etc that are relevant to my work).

I’ll be experimenting with this more in the next few weeks and will report back any progress.

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10

I have a zettelkasten with mostly “atomic”-sized notes that I link generously, and I use tags based on abstract concepts like “perception”, “happiness”, ……

I have a fixed list of these that I want to keep limited in number, right now 130. I have those tags listed in spreadsheet, with next to each a number of synonyms. So, if I want to add a new tag I 1st check to see if there isn’t an existing one that could be used if it is a synonym. If there is not and I really want to have that new tag I’ll add it.

I also check from time to time the number of notes with each tag: if it is below 5 I’ll delete that tag.

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but aren’t you contradicting yourself? If tags don’t graph, how can they make the graph unmanageable?

3 Likes
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Sorry - the second sentence should say “linking too liberally.”

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OK, that makes sense.

I still don’t quite know what to make of the graph, i.e. how it can really help. Yes, it shows which notes are interlinked, but so what? What can we do with that info, how does that help us make new discoveries?

You don’t necessarily need to answer that because it is a bit off the OP’s track.

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I like your idea of pruning tags. It’s giving me some ideas for how to adjust my link mania.

You mentioned your tags are mostly to abstract concepts. What about your links? Could you give a specific example, contrasting with “perception” or “happiness” tags?

I’m trying to think how this could apply to the history and news OP.

One thing I have in mind is links (to notes, or empty links) should be a question I want to answer, or later a question I think I’ve mostly answered. The link should resemble text I could type into Google or to a source that is readily interpretable. E.g. to use a recent event:

  • How big was the explosion in Beruit, absolutely and comparatively?
  • What is the impact of the Beirut port explosion on the local economy?
  • Is it normal to store explosive materials in a port?

A link to this “idea or question” note would be empty to start, but I’d gradually add transcluded links for reference notes and maybe my own text there. As I answer a question note to my satisfaction, I may adjust the title from a question to a statement. Reference notes can be inputs into multiple idea notes, and small idea notes (e.g. those above) can be inputs into varying large idea notes that are closer to proper reports, e.g.:

  • How does the port of Beruit explosion compare with the one in Tianjin China, in both circumstances and impact?

Whereas the tags would be far vaguer - probably not much use on their own, but they help me find obscure notes in the future. E.g.

  • Beruit
  • Hazardous materials shipping
  • Man made disasters

I’ll keep experimenting and see what works - this discussion is very useful for my thinking.

3 Likes
14

The “perception” and “happiness” links are in my zettelkasten, where I deal with subjects like “Uncertainty”, “Leadership”, “Creativity”, etc. These 3 are what I call “story rivers” (a term I borrowed from TiddlyWiki, although there it means something different). In my case a story river knits together a number of atomic notes into a story. The “knitting” is done with transclusions.

Each atomic note has 1 or more links to other notes in my zettelkasten, and I assign a number of concept #tags, such as “perception” and “happiness”, that I think describe the content of the note.

When I create a new note and have finished linking and assigning tags to it, I do a filter search for each tag to see if there are additional notes I can link to. It also allows me to assess whether all the #tags assigned to the new note still make sense or if I should delete/add 1 or 2 more.

That is how I build my network between what have come to regarded as evergreen notes.

I also have another collection of notes, which is more similar to your: I call it my Geopolitical notes, which also includes a number of economics notes because economics is often affected by politics.

I started building that collection before my zettelkasten, so they are not atomic at all: they are long to very long. I use different kinds of #tags that are separate from the zk ones.

I just started transferring them to Obsidian, and hope to be able to use transclusions for them too. I love transclusions; for me it’s one of the defining features of Obs.

The Geopolitical notes are in a vault that is separate from the zk vault.

2 Likes
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Hey Klaas,

Very nice to see your comments here…

It seems we share the same love for Zettelkasten and PKM in general :wink:

I used TiddlyWiki for a while…
It’s great but the learning curve is steep and rather long (even for a technical guy as me).

Now I am using Obsidian (just started but such a fan that after a few minutes I decided to become a VIP member), Zettlr (some time already), Joplin (longer) and Sublime Text (longest) to keep my MarkDown Zettels up to date.

Zettlr and Joplin don’t do a good job with large number of files.
I have Vaults with 30k+ (some 80k+) Zettels (Started as a “test”, biut used daily now).
Sublime Text with RegEx works great even on large numbers of files.
Obsidian works great with these numbers too.

The Graph is realy great, alltough for 80k Zettles this will not be very usefull I believe.

My normal Vaults contain 1000 Zettles or less which works great for the Graphs.

Hope to help the community with some insights like you do in the future.

Greetz,
Rik

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@RikD: hey there, pleased to meet you. No wonder I have not seen your name, you’re new. A reply to some of the points you make.

TiddlyWiki: I was and still am impressed by it. But like you, it was too much for me. After leaving it I always felt a bit, well, silly for not sticking with it longer. Your reaction to it as a tech guy makes me feel more at ease about my decision.

I too tried Zettlr and Joplin, as well as many other note-taking apps, but somehow they did not fulfil my not always well-defined wishes.

I eventually settled on Typora and VNote, both of which I used for a couple of years. After moving away from TW (used it in parallel with the other 2) I discovered Obsidian, and even though it is still in beta, I had this feeling of “yes, this is it”. The rapid development and lively community convinced me quickly to pay up.

I love the customisability with CSS sheets, I love transclusions, as well as the other features.

Re the graph: its usefulness became a bit clearer from comments here - Alexis has made some great observations.

And now there is also the local graph, in addition to the global one.

As for your number of notes, wow, that’s impressive, must represent quite a few years of gathering!

OK, that’s it for now.
I look forward to exchange with you again.

1 Like
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Interesting to hear you have so many notes Rik (well done, that’s tenacity). Most people, myself including, seem to be just starting this habit rather than so far along.

What is the primary subject of your notes? Do you find your note taking different for news and historical factoids?

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@Klaas, @icebear

Indeed the big vaults go back until 2002 when I started keeping things in simple text files.
Gradually changed to MarkDown along the way.

@Klaas
Thx for the additional info on Graphs: certainly useful.

@icebear
The primary usage of the big vaults is indeed to keep up with historical facts and news in the Financial Industry which is the ecosystem were I work in for the moment.
The smaller vaults are for “personal” use and have a Zettelkasten approach for linking and backlinking.

I also use Feedly to keep up with numerous RSS-feeds which are important for my job and my personal interests. The personal vaults receive the interesting RSS-feeds with some own notes and links so I can keep up with the flood of info there (2000+ messages a day).
Note: This is my job as an Innovation Lead. I do get to spend 100% of my time doing this.
Seems normal you can gather much more information then.

The big challenge until now (THX @obsidian) was to keep it all in good shape. Seems this is indeed “the thing”. That’s the reason why I directly sponsored this community. I love investing in things that I daily use and believe in!

Grtz,
Rik

1 Like
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Very interesting, and highly relevant to this threads discussion.

When taking notes on factoids, you make a distinction in reference/literature notes versus permanent notes, as often advocated in Zettelkasten? Are they all literature notes? Do you group notes by source, or by end topic?

Or, more generally, could you describe your average workflow from finding something of interest, e.g. via an RSS article on a historical factoid, to something close to it’s final form as a note in your vault?

These processes are very insightful, but rarely discussed for actual work applications. Appreciate whatever you can share!

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Hmm,

That’s not an easy one, and indeed workflows are not often described as they tend to differ from one person to another.

I started a few years ago with the notion of #tags which I do not use anymore and removed them from every Zettle I have in my vaults. MarkDown files are fully text searchable so I don’t see any use of Tags (personal opinion).

Links and Backlinks is another story:
When an interesting topic in an RSS feed passes by I start creating a Zettle with the pure text of the article and all necessary info for finding it back later. Pure copy because unfortunately sites and articles sometimes tend to disappear after a while which leave you with nothing over the years ;-).

Then I start searching other Zettels in all my vaults on keywords I find useful to link to. This purely for enabling me to write comprehensive summaries for our Executive Team and the Board. Sometimes this workflow triggers new Zettels with additional info and thoughts, which is totally OK.

After a while you can see some ‘gravitational’ forces in your graphs going to one direction (or more) depending on the topics you are working on. Sometimes you gravitate away from topics but sometimes they are ‘re-ignited’ years after with the great side-effect you already have great links and backlinks in the .md files.

As said. This works for me. I really don’t have the knowledge of the perfect system and I do a lot of research trying to keep up with PKM. As said it’s my job so I have the time to really focus on this.

Coming from an ICT technical background and having Six Sigma Black Belt and Design Thinking also as additional frameworks I don’t believe in a “one system fits all”-solution.
I really believe great working methods evolve out of using the best of every system you personally belief can be of interest to do the job. That’s what I am trying for almost 30 years now in my career.

I certainly am interested in assembling a framework approach like Zettelkasten meeting the needs of many on the PKM-front. Still 10 years of professional career and hopefully much time after that to achieve this Life goal :wink:

Regards,
Rik

2 Likes
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@RikD: +1 for 6-Sigma. I did not work as one, but did get closer through Lean. The latter concept is marvellous, can be applied to almost any situation, incl. the private situation. Even when I go through a supermarket I try to do it in a Lean way, and get irritated when my wife goes back and forth because her shopping list is constructed in a haphazard way.

1 Like
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Again, very interesting. I also found #tags low utility, given they grow quickly to a unmanageable size, and the availability of a search function. It’s also good to hear the Obsidian manages a large number of notes well.

If you would indulge me further, a few more questions:

  1. It sounds like you have two main types of notes/Zettels - source Zettels of full text articles from original sources, and comprehensive summary Zettels that pull together ideas from different articles. Is that right?
  2. Do you take notes within your source Zettels, or use them strictly as a repository to reference when writing your summary notes?
  3. Do you link to and from your source Zettels into summary Zettels, or link between your comprehensive summary Zettels (i.e. do links cross the two categories)? I worry that if I link liberally within source Zettels (which outnumber summary Zettels by orders of magnitude) that the utility of the graph may degrade.
  4. How do you distinguish your source Zettels from your summary Zettels in Obsidian - archives, folders, naming convention, indices, or not at all? Simply using the search function?
  5. How devoted are you to the atomicity principal in your summary Zettels?
  6. Do you tend to revise your summary notes over time, or do you prepare them once in advance of your work obligations that need them and then move on?

I agree that every workflow will differ, and we all need to iterate our own approaches rather than take a one-size-fits-all approach to note taking - I found some aspects of . But, I notice some overlaps in our workflows (I described mine here and here, above in this thread). I’ve had a very limited, but functional, source saving system for years, but have recently been trying to iterate improvements using Obsidian. Your steps have helped give me some ideas to experiment with myself, and that’s why I’m probing more here.

Again, appreciate all your comments!

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Aside: we are kindred spirits on this. From one to another, beware pushing efficiency in the supermarket too hard! :slight_smile:

1 Like
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Thanks for the warning, you are right. I do take my foot off the accelerator, telling myself that Lean was not really meant for that. It’s possible to drive oneself and those around nuts with it :blush:

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@icebear,

Sorry for the late reply. Some other issues to solve first :wink:

  1. I “treat” all my Zettles the same. For me (personal opinion) they are all just “concepts”/pieces of information that one day (or not) could be linked to one another.
  2. I don’t take notes in concept Zettles. They are ‘the source’. Again this is personal. I don’t want to evangelise my personal workflow.
  3. Links are placed in the ‘summary’ Zettles allthough you could see them also as Concepts when you really want to. Luhman’s workflow seemed to be that he didn’t put more than 3 references to other Zettles in his notes. I tend to go for 5 as a maximum. Links to other concepts can be much higher. Certainly when you are writing research papers. With links I personally refer to what you call Summary Zettles. I would not put more then 5 of those links in one Zettle.
  4. Indeed search function. Obsidian is the most powerfull (together with Sublime Editor which I personally use the longest now). I literally crashed Zettler and Joplin with my bigger vaults (10k Zettles seems to be the max for both). Zettlr and Joplin do not handle big numbers of files well. The tool litteraly becomes very slow and unusable. Obsidean seems to handle this very well. And no distinction between source and summary as already mentioned. Thinking about how search can help me ‘update’ the source Zettles with internal links between one another. E.g. I have done some research about Company X. I would do a global search for “Company X”. You probably are writing a comprehensive summary article but it would be nice to see that in the Graph too. Therefor you would need to replace Company X by [[Company X]] in the sources Zettles. Not sure if that is a good approach. All advice welcome there :wink:
  5. How devoted? Very as I follow the max link rule of that is what you meant ;-). Try to keep summary Zettles as small as possible. Even after some years of active Zettelkasten research I have a good workflow (even if I say it myself), but I still struggle with some small things.
    Hope to having helped you with this.
    If not: shoot new questions. WIll try to answer them ASAP.
5 Likes
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@RikD: some good points here.

I have been working on my zettelkasten for 6 years, incl. setting it up. I started 1st with Daniel Luedecke’s ZKN3 app, but soon found it too limited, not flexible, and not offering enough features.

I shan’t describe all my travails, suffice to say that I went to Evernote, OneNote, CherryTree, TiddlyWiki, and now Obsidian.

The way Obsidian works, and its features that keep evolving, makes it a real joy to work on my zettelkasten. I also have a different set of notes, with long to very long notes, and even there Obs is a pleasure. And many more useful features are on the way, absolutely mouth-watering.

The reason I say all this is because of the point I want to make: I have noticed that since I started using Obs some 3 months ago, I increasingly think in terms of links. My mind is much more alert to seeing connections between notes, and connections or duplications I had not picked up before.

I even discover relationships between things I hear and see that have nothing to do with my zettelkasten !

I have not tried to analyse the reason(s), I am just happy to have got to what I would describe as the next level of “relationship awareness”, which I believe (perhaps wrongly, perhaps not) is due to Obsidian.

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Totally valid point you’re making here.
The more you use the Zettelkasten approach the better you get at it. Luhmann seemed to be an absolute example of that.
I do believe Obsidian is certainly a positive enabler, offering you all the tools and gimmicks that make it possible to “see” links and other connections.
That will set you to make more Zettles and your second brain will become bigger and bigger and will help you become as good as Luhmann in creating new content.
I am still very far from that point. Certainly working towards that.
Great to see some likeminded souls who are trying to reach this goal too.
Hope Obsidian will definitely become the number one tool achieving that!

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