A couple thoughts have bubbled up…but first, getting on the same page.

There can be basically 3 levels of notes in a digital mass of notes:

  1. Notes
  2. Higher-order notes (like MOCs)
  3. A top note (like an Index note)

These are different levels of “emergence”, which implies that MOCs and the Index actually become something greater than the sum of their parts.


For the sake of not getting bogged down, for the next couple paragraphs let’s agree that we often find meaning by just doing things—then adjusting by either doing more of that kind of thing, or doing a different kind of thing.

So if we spend time in our PKM system, it should naturally evolve to areas of personally meaningful pursuit. I would even argue that just the very act of trying to make “atomic/evergreen/dynamic” notes and MOCs creates meaning.

That’s because it forces many questions to be asked. Many of those questions explicitly or implicitly connect to meaning: “What is the idea here?”, “What is meaningful here?”, “Is this two ideas or one?”, “Why is this important? What does this mean to me?”, “What relates to this?”


Sometimes we are intentional about finding meaning. Cue the angsty existential walk in nature asking “What is the meaning of life?!” (TOP-DOWN).

Sometimes meaning bubbles up from just living and doing. (BOTTOMS-UP)

Despite our best efforts—meaning happens fluidly.

In your Dynamic Note Mass, what does that look like?

  • Sometimes bottoms-up creates meaning: Note » MOC » Index
  • Sometimes top-down creates meaning: Index » MOC » Note
  • Sometimes middle-out creates meaning: MOC » Note, and MOC » Index

I celebrate all three.

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Well put. You’ve described different vectors to discovery, if that makes sense. Where do TOCs fit in here? Is a TOC an index? I’m still confused about where those fit.

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@kbrede Higher-order notes are notes primarily concerned with other notes. These encompass a variety of notes sometimes called hub notes, structure notes, outline notes, TOCs, and MOCs.

MOCs have many uses (navigation, ideation, incubation).

TOCs are specific and linear.

In practice, you might find you have several notes notes on a topic, so you think it might be a good idea to group them together in a new higher-order note you call topic MOC. Eventually that MOC is in what you consider good shape. It might have naturally become a TOC. Or what I would do is duplicate topic MOC and call it specific topic title TOC and assemble notes in a specific, linear order for whatever project was needed—like an essay, paper, book, etc.

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Makes sense. Thanks!

Very fair points/suggestions - perhaps this hasn’t been useful at all to anyone.

I don’t have my Obsidian set up at all yet to reflect this, but will be sharing what I come up with when the time comes. But as I’ve tried to describe, its less-so about how they are organized (let alone having a sophisticated system of tags and links for every item of perceived importance - I’ve seen MANY systems that are just aimlessly and endlessly connecting irrelevant factoids), and more about just having an actual perspective and filter to actually know what is important and why. Its not really about Obsidian, or any system - you could do it on paper or even in your head.

We have Data, Information, Knowledge, and Wisdom, and, almost by definition, Knowledge workers are stuck at Knowledge, at best. All that’s really necessary to move to Wisdom is to look beyond yourself and your personal goals and pursuits. By doing so, its actually rather easy to use your same passions, skills and opportunities, but also combine them in a way that maximizes your contribution to the world as well. Why wouldn’t you aim for that?

Instead of your academic research being read and discarded by 30 people, aim to also have it be relevant and influential for the masses.

Instead of taking random undergrad courses with the only real purpose being to get an expensive piece of paper, find some greater unification and purpose for them all, look for some interdisciplinary courses that relate to it, find some clubs or organizations who are aligned, and work towards making a life out of all this.

Instead of creating widgets or selling coffee to make a buck, find a way to do the same or a similar thing in a way that addresses problems of disposable goods and impoverished conditions for coffee farmers of the world.

Where Obsidian, Roam, a paper Zettelkasten etc… can come in very handy is in connecting many ideas and creating knowledge. But getting wisdom is a completely different thing - it’s a shift of perspective and orientation, not just a creative tweak/optimization. You find wisdom in looking beyond just the mirror. Yet, a deep, genuine, honest look in the mirror is the best place to start as it breeds humility. With that as a foundational guiding force, these tools can be tremendously helpful in your creative, searching process towards goals that are both personally and societally meaningful

Here’s concrete: Obsidian vs Roam. Built on a similar idea, similar intention of helping people be creative with their ideas. But despite the great ideas underlying Roam, the motives and practices are highly questionable. Hence, Obsidian, Foam, Athens, etc… Which will survive/thrive? Hard to say. Which should survive/thrive? Surely the ones that have privacy, openness, collaboration, affordability, etc… engrained in it. We’re all here for those reasons, after all… And its not self-evident that open-source is “better” - its useful to have people dedicated to building and maintaining a tool. Yet, I do look forward to seeing what Foam and Athens come up with.

I could come up with endless other examples/comparisons in any realm - but its clear that there is a “better” way of doing things, and its NEVER about your selfish wants, and ALWAYS about creating more harmony for the collective.

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Unfortunately I think a lot was lost in translation, because you haven’t understood the points I was trying to make whatsoever. This has nothing to do with any philosophical school, nor for me to impose any particular way of living or working on anyone. Nor am I imposing any particular structure on their Obsidian, or any other, notes.

On the contrary, I’m saying the how the system works is far less important than why you have the system and what it is working towards. In that regard, I’m simply calling for people to reflect and see how they can use their passions, skills and opportunities in a way that also addresses deeper social/global issues, in whatever way is appropriate for each person.

Looking beyond the mirror (which first requires a deep, honest look in the mirror) is the only thing I’m trying to encourage/impose. And I can’t see any reasonable argument against this, other than “I only care about myself”. My argument against that, without getting back into philosophical weeds, is a) “I’d rather not be an asshole” and b) “you actually sell yourself short insofar as you only care about yourself”.

I recognize that these ideas, and especially the way that I tend to share them, can be inflammatory (sometimes intentionally, but often just because I need to develop a better way of communicating them). In that respect, MY use of Obsidian (or whatever PKM tool I end up settling on in the long run - its an exciting time with lots of blossoming options) will be to try to create a navigable network of links and resources to justify, embolden, make attractive, etc… these ideas in as many ways as I can, because different notions, examples, rhetoric styles, etc… will attract different people. (I also have a physical project going on in the real world that I will be using Obsidian to help research and manage. Not sure what overlap these two things will have at the moment).

I hope this is more palatable to you.

More generally (and because I’ve hit my consecutive post limit and can’t reply to @NickMilo 's post directly):

I completely agree. What I was suggesting (and still maintain) is that many people whose PKM examples I’ve seen (I haven’t kept any references, so don’t ask, but you just have to look at society and how people generally live to prove my point…) don’t have this perspective and practice of looking for meaning.

Its also worth distinguishing different levels of “meaning” - as I pointed out in a different reply, we have Data, Information, Knowledge and Wisdom. Each level has its own “meaning”. There’s no meaning at the data level - its just numbers/data points. Information gives it some context or use. Knowledge gets more abstract, and perhaps insightful. Wisdom goes well beyond that to find universal principles and truths that underlie all the other levels and activities. Extremely simplified, surely full of holes - please don’t quibble.

People, in general, tend to live at the Information level. No real thirst or drive for understanding. Knowledge workers, by definition, tend to be at the Knowledge level (at least insofar as their work goes, but likely revert to information in many other areas of life). Seeking Wisdom is far more rare, and far more necessary in a world of information and “knowledge” overload.

I think a good PKM system (and just any human life) needs to try to understand and integrate all of these levels, especially wisdom. Perhaps that’s what I’ve been groping at saying all along - embed an Integrating Wisdom into your process of turning Data and Information into Knowledge.

Here’s a good, PKM friendly, resource on this concept.

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Thanks for the detailed reply !

It sounds like a very good way to live a life indeed, though I’d love to hear more, but I guess I’d back off since a philosophical discussion wouldn’t be helpful to this topic. But I look forward to your sharing, such a manifestation in the realm of knowledge management would be a very interesting thing to watch and learn from.

I responded to you via DM. Our back and forth is off topic.

I’ve seen it represented this way:
Info-pyramid

Same difference :wink:

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Thanks - again, I’m WELL aware that most of what I’ve said is completely unsupported. This was very much not the place for doing so. But supporting all this from as many angles as I can has been, and will continue to be, my life’s work. I’ll definitely share it all here when it is ready - hopefully in the coming months (though will never be done).

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Hadn’t seen that version - I’ll have to look into it to see what they mean by information, insight, etc… But yeah, more or less the same.

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There’s a perfectly reasonable case that wisdom is dimensionally opposite information and knowledge and that those who believe otherwise are deluding themselves.

Mmm. :thinking: Possibly not a good place to say this. :zipper_mouth_face:
I’ll get my coat.

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Could you elaborate on that a bit? DM me if you prefer.

I would argue that forging evergreen notes is an intrinsically meaningful activity.

I wouldn’t say every evergreen note gets to the level of “wisdom”, but they can, and most rise above the level of “information”. The same is true of higher-order notes like MOCs.

So at the very least, if you’re focused on building evergreen notes (which involves the questions I wrote above and many more), you’re spending attention at a level that can sufficiently satiate a lot of existential angst—while building something that you can age with and rewrite over time.

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Brain Pickings

This is an interesting conversation. I’m not a moderator but could I suggest starting this up on a different thread?

EDIT:
Let me rephrase. Please don’t take this interesting conversation to DMs in order to avoid hijacking. :slight_smile:

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Thanks for sharing that.

I think we can close the thread by directing everyone to that article - very fortuitously based on PKM’s Godfather, Vannevar Bush and his Memex - which mentions a few times (though not emphatically enough for my liking) the need for discernment and wisdom beyond just connection and even curation of ideas.

That would actually be my greatest criticism of Brain Pickings, which I was an avid reader of for a while (yet still point people towards and a tremendous resource for important ideas) - curation without discernment. Everything she references is [insert string of SUPERLATIVES], and quite often completely incompatible with other things she writes, even failing to note the changes in the thinking of individual people who she highlights. As well connected as it is internally, on a truly honest graph you’d have to create a bunch of red links with x’s through them to show the incompatibility of numerous articles. (not a bad thing to consider for our own systems - perhaps even more important than looking for compatibilities)

Here’s a link to the actual Vannevar Bush essay, which while quite long is a very worthwhile read. Amazing how far into the future he was able to see, yet we’ve surpassed that unimaginably. Even still, he went well beyond wikipedia and Obsidian and even hinted at something like Elon Musk’s Neuralink project. Its crucial to take note of the context that he opened and closed the essay with - war and general misuse of our cognitive powers… A thoroughly moral, and thus wisdom-based reflection. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-may-think/303881/

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I’ve got nothing against evergreen notes, nor you or your system. As I said a long while back, I very much appreciate you so generously creating and sharing all of your ideas on MOCs etc… I very much plan to incorporate your Index and MOC concept into my system as it nicely solves the problem of hierarchy/folders vs tags.

I think this all started with me simply disputing your use of “tilling the soil” as an analogy for PKM, and instead suggested we tend primarily to the roots/microbes/philosophical foundation that underlie our crops/notes/MOCs. Without that - wisdom - we’ve got nothing. Perhaps WIMF (Wisdom, Index, MOC and Fluid Frameworks), or something else like that, could be v4 :wink:

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Another neat representation of this (from an otherwise superficial article). Its about finding, filtering, and extracting truly meaningful information. The filtering, it seems to me, is by far the most important part given the completely insurmountable amount of information we can find and store. Extraction of anything useful would be impossible without due filtration/discernment upfront. What’s more, that yellow path/pattern/principle has remained relatively constant throughout the ages, across disciplines and situations. Its why the old books and ideas that we pay attention to has so much value.

And another one. I’d argue that insight and wisdom should be switched, but its just semantics because the sense of how they define them is correct. From here., which is a surprisingly interesting site, full of wisdom which applies well beyond their topic of designing racecars, particularly the goal to move from complexity to simplicity (again, well worth keeping in mine when a network map/PKM system can just keep growing into complete uselessness).

Whatever your pursuit, don’t get stuck at knowledge, or even understanding and application of that knowledge. Seek for the underlying essence of a truth.

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I feel Maria Popova’s objective is not to bring that to the table. It seems to me she wants to present different thoughts and different people - writers, philosophers, painters, …… - and give her readers food for thought.

The discernment and wisdom is for the reader to pick up. After all, everybody is unique and has their own way of judging what is right for them. Everybody has to build his own wisdom, MP cannot transfer it. She undoubtedly has her own wisdom - I believe she is quite intelligent - but my impression is she does not feel the need or want to impart that to others.

I may be wrong about all this, after all I am just surmising, but that’s how I understand her website.

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